tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2255955026366433532.post2282724687113620843..comments2024-02-15T13:50:58.814-08:00Comments on The Catholic Voyager: Comparing papal quotes on economicsThe Catholic Voyagerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01076867908302903171noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2255955026366433532.post-77830696596464780422013-12-28T14:14:12.281-08:002013-12-28T14:14:12.281-08:00I will leave your comment stand as is, as a reason...I will leave your comment stand as is, as a reasoned Catholic response. Thanks again for dropping in!The Catholic Voyagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01076867908302903171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2255955026366433532.post-38622274276642624162013-12-26T09:18:58.002-08:002013-12-26T09:18:58.002-08:00I understands your view. However, I disagree with...I understands your view. However, I disagree with your overly-generous assumptions, but I understand your point.<br /><br />Let me be clear: It is a very, very dangerous position for the Pope to speak is such broad, unequivocal terms of business and economics and capitalism if all he meant to do was speak about a very small fraction of business managers who are not ethical.<br /><br />I'm reminded of the MANY secular speakers who speak of "priests" as pedophiles, without clarifying that the actual percentages of priests who fit that description is in the sub-2% level. By their language -- you would think ALL priests are pedophiles. I fight that kind of misrepresentations by secular speakers, and I will continue to fight the Pope's misrepresentations by his lack of specificity as well.<br /><br />I have been in business for decades and in all that time I have met maybe one -- yes only one -- business manager who was unethical. I have done business in the USA, almost all parts of Latin America, Europe, China, Japan, Korea and Australia. <br /><br />Now, have some business managers made unethical decisions rarely in their working lives -- choosing option A for selfish or greedy reasons instead of option B, the more honest/ethical option? Sure. But that is the nature of man. <br /><br />If the Pope means to say that being in business exposes you to the risk of sinfulness, well then he ought to point out the same is true for teaching, government, religious, non-profit and just about EVERY single other part of life.<br /><br />I really do respect your attempt to "protect" or "explain" the Pope's words. But I don't understand why we as Catholics, especially given the obligations we have to expose errors or weaknesses in our clergy -- why we don't simply say: The Pope said the wrong thing. He is clearly wrong in his assumptions. He is clearly wrong in how he said it. He has clearly not attempted to correct his inappropriate language.<br /><br />Let's hold this Pope accountable for errors. Let's LOVE how generous and kind and loving he is -- let us celebrate what he has already brought to the church.<br /><br />But why be so fearful of correcting that which is not just wrong, but completely and totally wrong. Whether it is the "translation" or the choice of words (as others say) or the actual belief of the Pope that business managers are unethical in the whole, versus an incredibly small share of them who are, we ought to be able to simply tell him he is wrong and ask him to be more clear and specific so that his credibility and the church's is not harmed. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2255955026366433532.post-53074214905842737072013-12-25T20:37:27.026-08:002013-12-25T20:37:27.026-08:00Sorry, my wording was not clear. I didn't mean...Sorry, my wording was not clear. I didn't mean the document was addressed "to the poor" but that the topic related "to the poor" and how in a world of abundant resources there remains such profound poverty and wealth extremes. But anyway, I won't go on a defense of the trickle-down part of the document. The entire purpose of Pope Francis' thesis, seemed to me, to be a godliness that can be absent even in corporate arenas. Where profit--at the expense of--human persons is the goal. When he explained what kind of mentality he meant as a comparison, he referred to life in the womb, where the child is seen as a commodity. So if you are an ethical business owner, you have nothing to worry about. But certainly, there are corporations that practice unethics, treat the worker as the first means to cut spending, or even deceive their target markets. This occurs in international businesses. Of course, the black markets would fit his reference to the "absolute autonomy" he mentioned, although I can't say which markets he had in mind when he wrote it, and yet he does go on about "human trafficking" at times. Anyway, thanks for your thoughts, and keep up good work in your business. :)The Catholic Voyagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01076867908302903171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2255955026366433532.post-54677885692926328262013-12-25T12:09:38.022-08:002013-12-25T12:09:38.022-08:00I was thinking that the Pope's words were towa...I was thinking that the Pope's words were towards the rich and those in economic power.<br /><br />If he meant it for the poor, I don't quite understand why he thought the poor "wielded economic power" and why he chose to criticise them?<br /><br />If, on the other hand as I suspect, the Pope actually was writing to the rich, who wield economic power, then why would he presume the ONLY people they wield economic power to is over the poor? <br /><br />I myself am a business owner. I am one of the few who "wield economic power" over others. Why would this Pope presume to tell the world I exercise this power without regard to the poor?<br /><br />Also, if you are correct, and in general, he is writing for the "poor" -- who are they? I have neighbors who live in homes over $150,000 and they think they are poor. I have been to many 3rd world countries where people live in shacks and don't think they are poor because they have electricity and plumbing.<br /><br />Again, you are putting up a brave front -- and all of us -- at least the good catholics I know -- want nothing but success for this Pope. <br /><br />But we are not ignorant. We are neither ignorant of the current poor or the immense, billion plus, who have come out of abject poverty because (mostly) the ideas of free enterprise.<br /><br />Regarding your last point -- about income inequality -- note those are the Pope's word choice, not mine. My point is that by choosing "income inequality" rather than abject poverty -- the Pope has created two solution options--- raise the lowest incomes or lower the highest incomes. Again, he chose the subject, no myself. <br /><br />If he had more wisely chosen to address abject poverty, then the solution is more and more freedom/capitalism. But he seems to believe, contrary to nearly every fact and statistic in modern economic history -- that the "spill-over" or "trickle-down" miracle of economic growth has not only never been proven by the facts (again, contrary to modern history in China, India, Canada, Australia, The USA, Mexico, Indonesia, etc) but that one must be completely a fool to believe it to be true.<br /><br />And this is from our Pope?<br /><br />He really has completely astounded most of us with this miss.<br /><br />The fact that other Pope's have spoken of poverty is wonderful. The fact that this Pope has spoken about poverty is wonderful.<br /><br />The fact that his Pope has completely ignored modern history in some sort of reach to make some point -- only the Pope seems to know what that point is -- is crazy.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2255955026366433532.post-61612230227441860092013-12-24T19:13:27.644-08:002013-12-24T19:13:27.644-08:00This Pope's particular call seems to be toward...This Pope's particular call seems to be toward the poor. It doesn't mean he would ignore unhealthy eating or something. A person could walk and chew gum at the same time. But coming from where he did, his emphasis is on the poor. It's not an unworthy cause, even if people "in general" are "better off" than in 1861. Also, I don't think the Pope said anywhere that the solution to the income gap is to shrink everyone's income. If you have that citation, I am willing to read it. You may also find of interest my prior article comparing Pope Francis and Andrew Carnegie. Both men seem to at least take the approach that the wealthy may freely give to those in need, or at least, like Carnegie, create avenues with uplift large groups. The Pope's mantra in Evangelii Gaudium was a call to godliness in the markets. The Catholic Voyagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01076867908302903171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2255955026366433532.post-28150630368257452592013-12-24T07:44:18.585-08:002013-12-24T07:44:18.585-08:00This is a brave attempt at reconciling the Pope...This is a brave attempt at reconciling the Pope's words, but it is fundamentally flawed. It compares decades (even centuries) between quotes. Think of the immense, wonderful, extraordinary expansion of well-being in the world from 1957 to 2014. How could you compare the two?<br /><br />Note also that the precursor to most of your quotes point to the devastating state of physical hunger or deprivationsoin the prior quotes:<br />such as this:<br /><br />...more than two-thirds of the population are suffering from hunger...<br />and this:<br />"..some opportune remedy must be found quickly for the misery and wretchedness pressing so unjustly on the majority of the working class"<br /><br />and this:<br />"whilst leaving the poor in their misery and adding to the servitude of the oppressed. "<br /><br />The point that our current Pope has missed is that the world is immensely better off today than it was in 1861 and 1957 and 1967 and even 1997 and 2007!<br /><br />It is as if this Pope has been living under a rock and has no knowledge that for the first time in human history, billions of people have been raised out of abject poverty and starvation because of the freedom and flexibility of a system as close to capitalism as has ever existed on earth.<br /><br />Either you have to believe the Pope is stupid (no one I know believes this) or you have to believe the Pope has deliberately and completely missed the truth of our time since around 1980.<br /><br />Why would he do this? No one seems to know the answer.<br /><br />To be sure there are economies -- Africa, some (but now less and less) parts of Asia, are still suffering -- but expanding tremendously. And at the same time, for most of the western world (that includes BILLIONS of people) OBESITY is one of the great plagues of youth. Electricity, running water, even air conditioning serve more people now than ever imagined even 20 years ago.<br /><br />Why ignore this? Why not point out that we need MORE of it? Why not encourage capitalism?<br /><br />This is the problem with THIS Pope's words. If, as the article above implies, the issue is NOT the fundamental inhumanity where the poor live, but is instead simply about the gap between rich and poor -- than one could solve the gap by lowering ALL income levels.<br /><br />Consider two individuals: One makes $1million and one makes $100,000. Now destroy the world's economy so that one makes $10 and one makes $1. The differences in income in the first case is staggering: $900,000! The difference in the second is negligible: $9.<br /><br />Yet the second case is the case where income disparity is BETTER.<br /><br />Who would want that? Surely not this Pope and not any rational person.<br /><br />On the other hand, suppose that the richest $1million person got $2million and the poorer person's income rose to $200,000.<br /><br />Again, in terms of income disparity this is WORSE by every single measure! Yet, both are 2x better off!<br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com