tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2255955026366433532.post5589094770548244506..comments2024-02-15T13:50:58.814-08:00Comments on The Catholic Voyager: What is Purgatory?The Catholic Voyagerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01076867908302903171noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2255955026366433532.post-24018343491498180972016-03-31T08:41:39.108-07:002016-03-31T08:41:39.108-07:00we'll see one day pal :3we'll see one day pal :3Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2255955026366433532.post-4102357661580693122016-03-31T08:38:36.681-07:002016-03-31T08:38:36.681-07:00Come back to me 2012, i missed you! you were the b...Come back to me 2012, i missed you! you were the best years of my life. ;-;NukeisHonzamohttp://roblox.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2255955026366433532.post-82489371085183379702016-03-03T07:30:04.255-08:002016-03-03T07:30:04.255-08:00Awesome! This is so informative and timely. Than...Awesome! This is so informative and timely. Thanks foro your efforts to share this.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16458129847912506438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2255955026366433532.post-79770938279464833452016-01-25T16:15:37.870-08:002016-01-25T16:15:37.870-08:00Anonymous - Thanks for visiting. The first two sen...Anonymous - Thanks for visiting. The first two sentences you make are rebutted in the above blog post. <br /><br />And hell is indeed not the same as purgatory - Catholics do not claim otherwise.The Catholic Voyagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01076867908302903171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2255955026366433532.post-73994843155680952012016-01-25T12:50:35.182-08:002016-01-25T12:50:35.182-08:00Purgatory was invented by the church to scare peop...Purgatory was invented by the church to scare people and to take their money. There are no references to it in the Bible. Nor is it to hell. Gehenna was a valley outside Jerusalem.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2255955026366433532.post-26918151005897903362014-03-15T18:26:49.006-07:002014-03-15T18:26:49.006-07:00Thank you- that makes sense. I will continue to pr...Thank you- that makes sense. I will continue to pray for my friend and others who have passed as an expression of hopeful expectation on their behalf and also in affirmation of that interconnectedness that pope Benedict wrote so beautifully about in the quote above.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2255955026366433532.post-62284013068449981032014-03-14T10:47:53.829-07:002014-03-14T10:47:53.829-07:00p.s. As to your second comment about "in the ...p.s. As to your second comment about "in the past," God, who receives our prayers, exists without the boundaries of time. Any prayer God receives, He can effect as He wills, to any person, time, or place. So I encourage you to avoid using earthly time concepts when thinking about Purgatory. The Catholic Voyagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01076867908302903171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2255955026366433532.post-63990141441925685732014-03-14T10:44:38.975-07:002014-03-14T10:44:38.975-07:00Hello, Anonymous. A few things about the Good Thie...Hello, Anonymous. A few things about the Good Thief story.<br />1. Using the good thief to disprove Purgatory does not wipe out the other Scriptures that refer to our purification, as described above and other apologetics. Thus the "proof" is a guess that fails the scrutiny of other texts.<br />2. It is possible the Good Thief did not go to purgatory. After all, he made his confession, received his forgiveness, and certainly endured tremendous suffering on the cross for the remaining minutes of his life––if he offered that up, he could have offered due penance for his sins. <br />3. You mentioned "in an instant" - but if you refer back up to my article about whether or not Purgatory "takes time," you will see that in Catholic theology it is not necessary to measure Purgatory in earthly time measurements. What may seem like an instant here could be many "years" (for lack of a better word) in Purgatory, or some sort of equivalence. As the above article describes, it can be counterproductive to try to impose some physical time measurement on an event that is a mystery to us.<br /><br />So ultimately, the Good Thief may or may not have gone to Purgatory. This passage does not tell us one way or the other. I would certainly pray for your friend. The Catholic Voyagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01076867908302903171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2255955026366433532.post-48991172682638437892014-03-14T10:24:12.887-07:002014-03-14T10:24:12.887-07:00To add o my comment above: I did understand (sort ...To add o my comment above: I did understand (sort of) the point about earthly time duration not really applying and that the process could take place in an instant. But in that case why would it help the dead that we pray for them if their purgation happened in an instant and is now in the past?<br /><br />A friend of mine was quite emotionally disturbed and took his own life months ago. I would like to pray for him and some other people who have passed but if they are no longer in Purgatory because the refining purgation happened in an instant, then they are in heaven and there is no longer any need to pray for them. If the process does take time then what about the Good Thief? I am asking because I really need to know. Thanks!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2255955026366433532.post-52902175230350413322014-03-14T10:15:05.309-07:002014-03-14T10:15:05.309-07:00Hello
This was very useful to me coming from a Pro...Hello<br />This was very useful to me coming from a Protestant background. I am finding that in spite of what I have always heard it is Catholic theology that actually is more true to Scripture.<br /><br />My Protestant friends often bring up the episode of the Good Thief in reference to Purgatory asking "if purgatory is necessary how could Jesus promise a sinner, however repentant, that he would be with Him in paradise this very day?" I realize this is an older blog post but I am wondering if you have any thoughts about how this instance seems to disprove the idea of Purgatory. Thanks!<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2255955026366433532.post-71451726870590305762013-12-16T19:59:02.349-08:002013-12-16T19:59:02.349-08:00Thanks, Greg - I hope it is helpful!Thanks, Greg - I hope it is helpful!The Catholic Voyagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01076867908302903171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2255955026366433532.post-45729373484359848302013-12-16T19:41:35.103-08:002013-12-16T19:41:35.103-08:00Was just scouring the web for a good visual of pur...Was just scouring the web for a good visual of purgatory to use for my students (8th grade) during a lesson on the saints tomorrow and, wah-la, found this page! And I'm certainly glad I did! Your visual will be a great help tomorrow. <br /><br />Thanks, and keep up the great work for the Lord!<br /><br />In Christ,<br />Greg Aitchison<br />http://catholicreligionteacher.comGreg Aitchisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10942346114754815803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2255955026366433532.post-21858213966327267352012-11-14T13:21:52.062-08:002012-11-14T13:21:52.062-08:00Hello,
You said: But just one theological exampl...Hello,<br /><br />You said: But just one theological example is how when Jesus "healed" someone physically, the person was truly healed, not simply declared healed. When Jesus "heals" someone spiritually, that person is truly healed, grace actually does heal, the person is not simply "declared" healed when he is not truly healed. The story about the paralytic through the ceiling is an excellent example of the Gospels juxtaposing the signs of physical and spiritual healing.<br /><br />Yeah, I saw that example in your article, but it didn't "work" for me at the time because, healing and justification aren't the same thing. In retrospect, I think I can now pin down the reason why I don't think your example refutes imputation. Healing, in its deepest spiritual sense, belongs to sanctification (our progress in growing into Christ). Justification, however, is our standing or status before God and it is not a process, but rather an event. This we have by imputation because the righteous demands of the law that no one in Israel (or outside) could ever fulfill were fulfilled by Jesus, the true Israel on our behalf. So vis-a-vis God's justice, we stand acquitted and justified. God no longer imputes the penalty of sin to us, but rather imputes the righteousness of Christ to us, with respect to our legal standing in God's tribunal. But the "legal" metaphor is only one among many that Scripture uses. It's but one facet of our salvation. There are many more to consider, including our actual holiness. This, as I think all parties agree, is a process of gradual transformation.<br /><br />So yes, when Christ heals us, it's a real healing, not a legal one. The healing actually takes place, it's not imputed to us. So ultimately I'd say it's just a category mistake to put all facets of salvation under the heading of imputed righteousness. To the extent that Protestants give Roman Catholic the impression that this is all salvation is, we surely err. But to say that imputation isn't there at all, as many in Rome now do, is likewise just as wrong. <br /><br />It seems to me that Roman Catholics like Newman and Schmaus attempted to combine Tridentine justification with elements of Protestant imputation. So what God *declares* actually takes effect, ontologically speaking. Thus you are legally righteous in God's court of law, but a genuine substance of righteousness or holiness actually adheres to your soul. It's an intriguing theory, but one that seems to be born out of the necessity of reconciling Trent to the Bible. Paul, on the other hand, had so such categories of substance and accident to work with; rather he uses dikaoo in its declarative sense as virtually all New Testament scholars (regardless of confession) now acknowledge.<br /><br />But not to worry. For if you asked Paul if he thought that it was good enough to simply be declared righteous and that there was no imperative to actually become what we've been declared to be, two words come to mind: me genoito! (May it never be!). The example of Paul's life testifies to the fact that the Christian life is a race to be run and a fight to be fought. There are many on your side of the Tiber who are doing that much better than we are, whether they have the right theological theory properly grasped in the intellect or not.<br /><br />Blessings to you,<br /><br />Mike Taylor<br />Michael Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15959325406204766596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2255955026366433532.post-62597699751707968342012-11-14T06:56:33.285-08:002012-11-14T06:56:33.285-08:00Temporal "consequences" and "punish...Temporal "consequences" and "punishments" are generally interchangeable terms. So I think I did address temporal consequences, and whether it is because God permits us to suffer here or in the presence of purgation in Purgatory, it is his work, and it is in Him we boast. No qualms there.<br /><br />Catholics do not embrace imputed righteousness for a variety of reasons. Perhaps you've heard some. But just one theological example is how when Jesus "healed" someone physically, the person was truly healed, not simply declared healed. When Jesus "heals" someone spiritually, that person is truly healed, grace actually does heal, the person is not simply "declared" healed when he is not truly healed. The story about the paralytic through the ceiling is an excellent example of the Gospels juxtaposing the signs of physical and spiritual healing.The Catholic Voyagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01076867908302903171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2255955026366433532.post-44838878193387034072012-11-11T17:13:58.341-08:002012-11-11T17:13:58.341-08:00I think this is a pretty good exposition of Purgat...I think this is a pretty good exposition of Purgatory-Lite, as opposed to the traditional conception which seems more like a temporary hell. My first observation would be this. If I were reading a Protestant systematic theology and took out the word "sanctification" and inserted the word "purgatory," I'd pretty much end up with what you've written here. Except for one thing: What about the personal atonement/satisfaction/temporal guilt-due-to-sin piece? That's still part of the "essence" of purgatory even if the "fire" and the "time spent there" parts can all be reinterpreted in a way more palatable to moderns.<br /><br />My second observation is this: You make much of the "temporal consequences" that often follow sin. But are these part of Divine Justice? That is, are these punishments that God imposes so that we can satisfy guilt? I ask, because it seems like a category confusion to equate temporal consequences with divine punishment.<br /><br />Third observation: I think you're right that we Protestants can often approach this topic in falsely dichotomous ways. So when you point out that there is no necessary conflict between giving alms and Christ's work on the cross, or Fatherly discipline and Christ's work on the cross, etc., I find myself agreeing with you.<br /><br />But--and here's the thing--If we're right about distinguishing our status before God (justification) from our individual progress (sanctification), and we are, then to conflate the two into one category as Rome does, may explain why we're so confused about purgatory. <br /><br />Here is what I mean by that: I agree with you that there is a certain "degree" of holiness required for entry into heaven, namely absolute perfection. But I disagree with you that this is attainable in this life or in the next. So I'm banking with Paul that it is better to boast, "not in a righteousness of my own" but rather that which comes from God. If we're right, then we already have that perfect righteousness by imputation. If we're right, then we're already clean. So we don't have to attain that perfect standard on our own; rather it has already been attained by Jesus on our behalf. <br /><br />But here's where we haven't thought it all the way through. Rome has a theory to explain the change from our earthly existence to our heavenly existence. Rome understands that the process of sanctification must have a postmortem component and that this most likely involves some kind of pain and suffering (perhaps including even the process of death itself). This is why I think Protestants may need to do more work on how sanctification actually is completed if it isn't complete this side of heaven. <br /><br />I for one think we can borrow some of Rome's good ideas. But we would need to screen out some of its bad ones. In other words, Rome's purgatory needs its own purgatory before it would be acceptable to us. We can start with the concept of personal atonement/satisfaction for the temporal punishment due to sins. That's just got to go. Unfortunately not even Purgatory-Lite has purged this part of the doctrine, and so it finally remains a false doctrine, albeit with some salvageable true components.<br /><br />Other than that, great article! If time permits, I'll try to give you a more sustained reply to some of the particular points you make on my own blog (http://fallibility.blogspot.com/). But it is a long article, so I don't know that I could do it the justice it deserves. Perhaps I'll just comment on some parts of it--your use of scripture, for example, which I found mostly problematic.<br /><br />Blessings to you!<br />Mike Taylor<br />Michael Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15959325406204766596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2255955026366433532.post-70002997140308729522012-10-29T15:29:28.706-07:002012-10-29T15:29:28.706-07:00Purgatory is real!! wether it be here on earth for...Purgatory is real!! wether it be here on earth for certain ppl or after death where many many if not most will go.<br /><br />The bible says that any man that is chastised by God becomes like a son. And those who have not been chastized for ye are like bastards. For who is a son of God without chastisment?<br /><br />When Jesus died he decended down to all the ppl who where in prison/purgatory from the days of noah and preached to them so they too would come to heaven one day. The lenght of yrs from the time of Jesus and the time of noah is very very long, all stuck in prison/purgatory.<br /><br />Job had his purgatory on earth and he was the only one on the face of the earth who walked perfectly with God. Look what he went through, how many ppl here can say they are as holy as job? none!<br /><br />To truly know the truth is to know a period of long suffering. It is through long suffering wherefore wisdom is earned.<br /><br />Everyone will go through purgatory! you'll see!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2255955026366433532.post-28966548427519709282012-08-25T12:32:57.139-07:002012-08-25T12:32:57.139-07:00Thank you! Yes, the graphic in your link is simila...Thank you! Yes, the graphic in your link is similar. The coal-bearing Seraphim of Isaiah is a great example of fire and the purification of sin going hand-in-hand. The Catholic Voyagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01076867908302903171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2255955026366433532.post-44920475315197468352012-08-25T08:43:14.159-07:002012-08-25T08:43:14.159-07:00Ha! Those are great graphics! I teach catechism an...Ha! Those are great graphics! I teach catechism and draw that sort of stuff during class. <br /><br />Your molten gold reminds me of an image I refer to in our Isaiah class: <br /><br />http://platytera.blogspot.com/2010/11/isaiah.htmlkkollwitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17691145638703824456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2255955026366433532.post-45120421356293585652012-07-18T19:01:43.799-07:002012-07-18T19:01:43.799-07:00Thanks for clearing that up in my head, don't ...Thanks for clearing that up in my head, don't have confusion(which is of the Devil) but a serious lack of knowledge in the theology sense of matters. Plenty of mysticism(Catholic type) experiences which I only pay-mind to if I can find a Saint of the Church or a decent theologian to help explain matters....that way, I know that it is just the Holy Spirit guiding me and not man(self included) or that snake-in-the-grass(Satan). Thanks again and I will ask all of those(Saints&Angels) who have personally help me this far in life to give you a Special Blessing.Donald W.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16498396995635666106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2255955026366433532.post-50095944879984495632012-07-18T18:33:53.930-07:002012-07-18T18:33:53.930-07:00Hi, Donald - yes, we can certainly be sanctified h...Hi, Donald - yes, we can certainly be sanctified here on earth as the King David example, or the Hebrews 12 example, or many other examples of suffering in this life demonstrate. These instances are forms of what we call sanctification. The idea of Purgatory is sanctification after death. As far as I know, it is the Church's current understanding that a soul in Purgatory cannot pray for him/herself like a person on earth could. (e.g. http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/how-to-help-the-holy-souls-in-purgatory/) All the more that we should pray that they be finally loosened from all stains of sin!<br /><br />God bless! :)The Catholic Voyagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01076867908302903171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2255955026366433532.post-43546637803010758422012-07-18T16:24:42.307-07:002012-07-18T16:24:42.307-07:00Nice writing, about half way through it and had a ...Nice writing, about half way through it and had a question.By the definition, which you cited, it says that purgatory is after death. Yet, I have always wonder if it could be suffer before death. You cite King David and the Prophet Nathan as an example, so do you think that it is possible? I am not trying to disagree with your church of course, since it is clearly the final authority. During my more mystical period in life, I was inflicted with great past sins and had ask a Priest if it was possible and he had reply that he thought so. Any thoughts?Donald W.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16498396995635666106noreply@blogger.com